Amex CEO: More Card ‘Refreshes’ (& Fee Hikes) Are ... - Page 6 - myFICO® Forums

FlaDude · ‎04-24-2024

@longtimelurker wrote:
@AwsiDooger wrote:

Otherwise I'm shocked that so many users here have annual fee cards. I thought that would be avoided, just like paying interest.

Others have made that comparison, and IMO it is just wrong. If you can pay in full, paying interest would make sense if you have a better use for the money and that's why some take full advantage on 0% APR offers, pay the minimum and "invest" (perhaps merely by putting it in a high-yield savings account) but outside that, usually credit card interest far outweighs potential earnings.

Certainly some travel cards with AFs have enough benefits to more than offset the AF. For example, until recently the Amex Hilton Surpass card was $99 a year and included 10 priority pass airport lounge visits, Hilton Gold status (good for free breakfast at many locations), and bonus points on Hilton spend. If you travel enough, espescially staying at Hilton chains, it was worth way more than $100 a year. Unfortunately the focus of this thread is they are raising a lot of the card fees, removing useful or easy to use credits, and adding credits that are not useful to a lot of people based on their organic use of the card. The same card now has a $150 AF, no Priority Pass. It does now have $50/quarter Hilton credit so if you stay at those hotels in at least 3 quarters a year, it still pays for itself. Since my travel is not near what it used to be, the card doesn't make sense for me any more and I'll be canceling or switching to a no AF card.

Scores: March 21 FICO 8: EX 810, TU 808, EQ 813
AoOA: closed: 36 years, open: 25 years; AAoA: 11.8 years
Amex Gold, Amex Green, Amex Blue, Amex ED, Amex Delta Gold, Amex Hilton Surpass, BoA Platinum Plus, Chase Freedom Unlimited, Chase Amazon, Chase CSP, Chase United Explorer, Citi AA Plat, Sync Lowes, Sync JC Penney - total CL 145k
Loans: Chase car loan (35k/6yrs 0.9%)

notmyrealname23 · ‎04-24-2024

@AwsiDooger wrote:
Otherwise I'm shocked that so many users here have annual fee cards. I thought that would be avoided, just like paying interest.

If I pay a $695 annual fee but I get $800 in value out of paying the annual fee, why would I avoid this? That's +$105 in value I didn't have before the annual fee was paid.

Now, my $800 in value might be your $0, or someone else's $1000. Which is totally fair. Everyone gets to do their own math. But I figure my cards are something like 2x-3x in taking a few thousand in travel (between actual spend and annual fees) and turning it into 2x-3x more travel.

@AwsiDooger wrote:
Travel cards are no good for me, for the same reason. I don't want to be dependent on one brand or chain.

Sure, but imagine where you get a $150 a year credit card that gives you $250 in value, and then you choose whatever the heck hotel you want for staying. Just because I have a Hilton or Marriott or IHG card doesn't mean each chain will be best for every trip, or that I have to take a trip and stay in one of those chains. Sometimes I do just fine in the $62 a night motel. I might stay in some "stuffy" places but generally my AF cards (hotel or airline cobrand, or whatever) are evaluated for "what is benefit X or Y worth?". If I add all that up, subtract an annual fee and it's a negative number, it gets 86'ed (literally just product changed a Citi AA card today to avoid an annual fee).

redpat · ‎04-24-2024

Only wishing for Amex plat, dump coupon book raise AF go 10x hotel and rental cars Amex portal,centurion lounge w/ 2 guests, 5x dining and last, travel portal of 1.50x like chase on all portal bookings.

Personal Cards: Amex Plat | Amex Delta Res | CSR | Citi AA Exec Business Cards: Ink+ | Amex BGR

Kforce · ‎04-24-2024

@notmyrealname23 wrote:
If I pay a $695 annual fee but I get $800 in value out of paying the annual fee, why would I avoid this?
That's +$105 in value I didn't have before the annual fee was paid.

Math from your example:

Spend of 8,889 with 3x points/miles per dollar = 26,667
3x rewards for flight/hotel etc, because of the AF card value

thru portal/etc = 80,000 = ~$800
Net = 800-695 = $105

Same spend 8,889 on a NAF 3% or 3x = $267

You lost ~$100 over a NAF card.

Goal is to make more than a NAF or lesser fee card,
not make more than the fee.

Minimum spend to pay for an AF card is
(AF/gain) of the AF card.
Lets say getting 9% rewards vs 3% (6% gain)

$695/0.06 = $11,583
Spend on AF card required to equal the NAF.
Larger spend AF card wins, lesser the NAF wins

longtimelurker · ‎04-24-2024

@Kforce wrote:
@notmyrealname23 wrote:
If I pay a $695 annual fee but I get $800 in value out of paying the annual fee, why would I avoid this?
That's +$105 in value I didn't have before the annual fee was paid.
Math from your example:
Spend of 8,889 with 3x points/miles per dollar = 26,667
3x rewards for flight/hotel etc, because of the AF card value
thru portal/etc = 80,000 = ~$800
Net = 800-695 = $105

Same spend 8,889 on a NAF 3% or 3x = $267
You lost ~$100 over a NAF card.

Goal is to make more than a NAF or lesser fee card,
not make more than the fee.

Minimum spend to pay for an AF card is
(AF/gain) of the AF card.
Lets say getting 9% rewards vs 3% (6% gain)
$695/0.06 = $11,583
Spend on AF card required to equal the NAF.
Larger spend AF card wins, lesser the NAF wins

And then, to be complete, is there a different AF card (which you can reasonably expect to get) that would do even better on average on your transactions. But @Kforce basic point is absolutely correct (and seems to be missed sometimes here): rewards etc covering the annual fee is certainly a requirement for considering an AF card, but you need to do the analysis compared to other cards (both AF and no AF) to see if it is truly worth it.

That said, in reality it can be hard. Card A offers me lounge access, free card B doesn't. How much do I value that? Well, I could buy a daily pass for $X and I go 5 times a year so should I count that as $5X for card A? Or I could buy a membership and go more, so maybe count that membership fee for card A? But I don't use a lounge now, and certainly don't pay for them, so really how much is that worth..... etc

redpat · ‎04-24-2024

@AwsiDooger wrote:
@longtimelurker wrote:
@redpat wrote:

It's the same people that say they don't eat at McDonalds......
What's "McDonalds"?

(OK, as a vegan I really don't go there, at least in the US. Elsewhere they do have real vegan options)
I haven't been to McDonald's in 6 years, and seldom period. For a while 6-8 years ago they had McChicken for $1 and regular hamburgers for 59 cents on Wednesdays and Sundays. I could drive away with 6 sandwiches and a small fries for not far above $6. These days it would probably be at least triple that amount.

Otherwise summer 1984 was the only prior stretch I cared about McDonald's. They had a scratch card promotion for the Summer Olympics in Los Angeles. The Simpsons did a spoof on this a decade or so later. Once the Russians and other eastern bloc nations boycotted, the United States' medal opportunity soared in one event after another. I was brand new to Las Vegas, fresh out of college. There was a McDonald's less than 75 yards from the Stardust sportsbook. And the employees at that McDonald's didn't want the hassle of handing out one card per customer. They would shovel a dozen just to get rid of them for the day. Consequently many of us had at least 100 cards. One tap out after another suddenly cared about men's 100 breaststroke -- for example -- and whether it would enable a free Big Mac.

Otherwise I'm shocked that so many users here have annual fee cards. I thought that would be avoided, just like paying interest. The only one I've ever had was acquired 2 months ago, taking advantage of that Blue Cash Everyday to Preferred "upgrade" with $150 bonus and $95 fee waived the first year. I already don't like it and can't wait to transfer back. There are simply too many ways to do better. I just switched streaming away from that card to take advantage of a superior short term return on a different card.

Travel cards are no good for me, for the same reason. I don't want to be dependent on one brand or chain. There are always budget hotels that far exceed their nameplate. Stuffy types will never bother to check for that. I sample the reviews carefully during the wee hours, especially recent reviews, and am never disappointed. I just booked 24 days at $62 average counting tax, not including all the cash back from coupon sites and the Chase Freedom cards at 5% this quarter. Priceline will be best for one city, Expedia the next city, maybe Choice the following one.

lol, $62, for fun I'm traveling next week and took a look on those OTAs for something and what I found was, the middle of no where, bad reviews, unclean and basically bottom of the barrel. I'd prefer my safety over price.....Not being stuffy at all.

Personal Cards: Amex Plat | Amex Delta Res | CSR | Citi AA Exec Business Cards: Ink+ | Amex BGR

Dilbert934 · ‎04-25-2024

@notmyrealname23 wrote:
@AwsiDooger wrote:
Travel cards are no good for me, for the same reason. I don't want to be dependent on one brand or chain.
Just because I have a Hilton or Marriott or IHG card doesn't mean each chain will be best for every trip, or that I have to take a trip and stay in one of those chains. Sometimes I do just fine in the $62 a night motel.

This is why we love the Skymiles cards. The $150 and $200 Delta Stays credits are not linked to a chain. We prepaid $97 to stay at a local hotel in the middle of nowhere next weekend for a spring festival. It was available through Expedia (via the Delta travel site) so we are staying for a $0 out of pocket cost.

Saleen099 · ‎04-25-2024

@longtimelurker wrote:
@redpat wrote:
@longtimelurker wrote:
@redpat wrote:

It's the same people that say they don't eat at McDonalds......
What's "McDonalds"?

(OK, as a vegan I really don't go there, at least in the US. Elsewhere they do have real vegan options)
LTL, my condolences being vegan.

But you did go to MickeyD's before becoming vegan.
Actually no, I never did. Never appealed. Now as a non-vegan student in London, KFC at 3am after some drinks and a few games of pinball, sure. (Yes, this was the 70s. For the younger readers, pinball was a kind of video game, without the computer or screen or keyboard, but, well too hard to explain)

All this talk about McDonald's

PullingMeSoftly · ‎04-25-2024

@notmyrealname23 wrote:
@AwsiDooger wrote:
Otherwise I'm shocked that so many users here have annual fee cards. I thought that would be avoided, just like paying interest.
If I pay a $695 annual fee but I get $800 in value out of paying the annual fee, why would I avoid this? That's +$105 in value I didn't have before the annual fee was paid.

Now, my $800 in value might be your $0, or someone else's $1000. Which is totally fair. Everyone gets to do their own math. But I figure my cards are something like 2x-3x in taking a few thousand in travel (between actual spend and annual fees) and turning it into 2x-3x more travel.

@AwsiDooger wrote:
Travel cards are no good for me, for the same reason. I don't want to be dependent on one brand or chain.
Sure, but imagine where you get a $150 a year credit card that gives you $250 in value, and then you choose whatever the heck hotel you want for staying. Just because I have a Hilton or Marriott or IHG card doesn't mean each chain will be best for every trip, or that I have to take a trip and stay in one of those chains. Sometimes I do just fine in the $62 a night motel. I might stay in some "stuffy" places but generally my AF cards (hotel or airline cobrand, or whatever) are evaluated for "what is benefit X or Y worth?". If I add all that up, subtract an annual fee and it's a negative number, it gets 86'ed (literally just product changed a Citi AA card today to avoid an annual fee).

With the $50 quarterly credits counting towards Hilton gift cards (confirmed as having now received the Q2 credit), but minus the $1.95 fee for each (as they are physically shipped cards), net annual value for me is $42.20 ($200 - $7.80 gc fees - $150 af = $42.20). So a little gain in exchange for the annoyance of going through this exercise every quarter, and having to introduce gift cards into my checkout process, not worth the hassle. The goal was always to grab the sub and convert to a second Aspire anyway.